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Rebuild the IRIAF
#1
Title says it. Let's discuss our realistic options only. I will post my ideas tomorrow.
#2
There are 3 possible options - Russia, China, or Iran itself. But even these options narrow down. Iran hasn't, in my opinion, displayed a concerted effort towards a major aircraft program. As for China, when the talk of the Su-30 deal was officially confirmed, Iran explicitly ruled out buying aircraft from China. This may change, however.

That leaves Russia.

I am convinced that Iran needs a large and advanced air force to counter regional enemies. Missiles alone actually cost more per ton to attack targets in, say, Saudi Arabia. And SAMs alone are ill-equipped to defend against massed cruise missile attacks - which aircraft may be better positioned to prevent, given that the Saudi Air Force's Storm Shadow missiles are all air-launched. That means the full spectrum of aerial warfare - advanced fighter aircraft, aerial refuelling aircraft, AWACS etc. Iran is poorly positioned to fill any of these needs. There may be potential in enlarging the RQ-170 into a bomber (as Iran has stated it aims to do), but that is a low priority compared to advanced multi-role fighters. Russia does have all the aforementioned types of aircraft, with the Su-30 fighter, Il-78 tanker and A-100 AWACS, all of which are in production and are quite modern. If Iran commits to buying a large number of these aircraft, I think the money will attract Russia to the deal and away from western pressure.

I do think that Iran has to pursue stealth aircraft in the future, which is why I think it should look at buying Chinese J-31 or J-20 fighters. These aircraft would give us a decisive edge over the Arab air forces, and be a bulwark against Israeli threats. 

I also think a large air force would also be of some use against the US. https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2018/02/...tside.html
نه شرقی، نه غربی، جمهوری اسلامی
#3
(07-30-2018, 08:23 AM)AmirPatriot Wrote: There are 3 possible options - Russia, China, or Iran itself. But even these options narrow down. Iran hasn't, in my opinion, displayed a concerted effort towards a major aircraft program. As for China, when the talk of the Su-30 deal was officially confirmed, Iran explicitly ruled out buying aircraft from China. This may change, however.

That leaves Russia.

I am convinced that Iran needs a large and advanced air force to counter regional enemies. Missiles alone actually cost more per ton to attack targets in, say, Saudi Arabia. And SAMs alone are ill-equipped to defend against massed cruise missile attacks - which aircraft may be better positioned to prevent, given that the Saudi Air Force's Storm Shadow missiles are all air-launched. That means the full spectrum of aerial warfare - advanced fighter aircraft, aerial refuelling aircraft, AWACS etc. Iran is poorly positioned to fill any of these needs. There may be potential in enlarging the RQ-170 into a bomber (as Iran has stated it aims to do), but that is a low priority compared to advanced multi-role fighters. Russia does have all the aforementioned types of aircraft, with the Su-30 fighter, Il-78 tanker and A-100 AWACS, all of which are in production and are quite modern. If Iran commits to buying a large number of these aircraft, I think the money will attract Russia to the deal and away from western pressure.

I do think that Iran has to pursue stealth aircraft in the future, which is why I think it should look at buying Chinese J-31 or J-20 fighters. These aircraft would give us a decisive edge over the Arab air forces, and be a bulwark against Israeli threats. 

I also think a large air force would also be of some use against the US. https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2018/02/...tside.html

So what about F-313 than?
#4
(07-31-2018, 09:35 AM)07_SeppDietrich Wrote: So what about F-313 than?

As I said, there is no concerted effort. By a concerted effort, I mean Iran trying to make the various advanced subsystems that would be used in a 5th generation fighter. Advanced turbofan engine, fighter sized long range IRST, FBW, fighter sized AESA radars (need to be miniaturised), off boresight short range AAMs with the accompanying Helmet Mounted Sight, small profile medium-long range BVR AAMs (small enough to fit in an internal weapons bay), stealth shaping and material work... the list goes on and on. I'm not aware of Iran making or delivering any of the subsystems required for a 5th fighter.
نه شرقی، نه غربی، جمهوری اسلامی
#5
Realistic option for IRIAF would be to first improve and sustain what it has with upgradations and some moderate level purchases.

44-48 X F-4

F-4 fleet is diverse in sense that this fighter along with F-14AM can deliver the A2A role while it can also carryout naval or A2G strikes. I think Doran up-gradation of the fleet with JL-10A pulse doppler or KLJ-7 radars, armed with Pl-12, SD-10, Fakour-90, Ghader/C802-803 ... New EO/IR, Jamming pods etc. May be HMS with high OBS WVR attack. This up-gradation will bring Phantom fleet to 4.0 generation at least in terms of combat suite. Suddenly you have 4 fully functional multirole squadrons who can put up a strong fight in air and also deliver blows to enemy on ground or in sea. Any future Iranian Moskit SuperSonic AShM should be launched from New Phantoms.

~30 x F-14 AM with R-73, Fakour-90, New ECM.

20 x Mig-29 upgraded to SMT standard.

New purchases

Additional 2 squadrons of Mig-29M2/SMT Or Mig-35 need to be purchased. Not much of a new infrastructure will be required as IRIAF already has been operating this family for decades.

4 squadrons of MRCA Su-30SM. If Russia does not agree then 4 squadrons of J-10B. IRIAF badly needs 4+ a MRCA platform. People talk about 5th generation purchases that would not happen till 2025 ideally. These 4+ MRCA are required even if by some miracle IRIAF gets its hands on J-31.

4 x AEW with TOT.

All other crap like F-7N, Shahi legacy F-5E/F, Saeghe Abominations, Saddams gifted Mirage F1 EQ etc can be given to IRGC-AF if they want to enhance their fleet. Otherwise they are just fuel and maintenance burdens with no real combat value.

Domestic Blue angel F-18 and Qaher propaganda stunts need to stop. TOT from a reliable source is the only way.

(07-30-2018, 08:23 AM)AmirPatriot Wrote: There are 3 possible options - Russia, China, or Iran itself. But even these options narrow down. Iran hasn't, in my opinion, displayed a concerted effort towards a major aircraft program. As for China, when the talk of the Su-30 deal was officially confirmed, Iran explicitly ruled out buying aircraft from China. This may change, however.

That leaves Russia.

I am convinced that Iran needs a large and advanced air force to counter regional enemies. Missiles alone actually cost more per ton to attack targets in, say, Saudi Arabia. And SAMs alone are ill-equipped to defend against massed cruise missile attacks - which aircraft may be better positioned to prevent, given that the Saudi Air Force's Storm Shadow missiles are all air-launched. That means the full spectrum of aerial warfare - advanced fighter aircraft, aerial refuelling aircraft, AWACS etc. Iran is poorly positioned to fill any of these needs. There may be potential in enlarging the RQ-170 into a bomber (as Iran has stated it aims to do), but that is a low priority compared to advanced multi-role fighters. Russia does have all the aforementioned types of aircraft, with the Su-30 fighter, Il-78 tanker and A-100 AWACS, all of which are in production and are quite modern. If Iran commits to buying a large number of these aircraft, I think the money will attract Russia to the deal and away from western pressure.

I do think that Iran has to pursue stealth aircraft in the future, which is why I think it should look at buying Chinese J-31 or J-20 fighters. These aircraft would give us a decisive edge over the Arab air forces, and be a bulwark against Israeli threats. 

I also think a large air force would also be of some use against the US. https://irangeomil.blogspot.com/2018/02/...tside.html

I agree ... 

Iran can not produce a reliable fourth generation MRCA and that is a fact. Even if government starts putting in mad money in it there will still be much needed foreign procurements like Turbofans, Radars, Combat suite etc. Better would be to purchase some no. of 4+ generation with a moderate level TOT along with AEW. Those TOT plants in future can probably yield out a domestic 4++ MRCA in future. I would rather have just 90-100 x 4+ generation MRCAs guarding Iranian skies with AEW's than 300+ Shahi legacy relics.
#6
(07-31-2018, 10:38 PM)Emirzaad Wrote: Realistic option for IRIAF would be to first improve and sustain what it has with upgradations and some moderate level purchases.

44-48 X F-4

F-4 fleet is diverse in sense that this fighter along with F-14AM can deliver the A2A role while it can also carryout naval or A2G strikes. I think Doran up-gradation of the fleet with JL-10A pulse doppler or KLJ-7 radars, armed with Pl-12, SD-10, Fakour-90, Ghader/C802-803 ...  New EO/IR, Jamming pods etc. May be HMS with high OBS WVR attack. This up-gradation will bring Phantom fleet to 4.0 generation at least in terms of combat suite. Suddenly you have 4 fully functional multirole squadrons who can put up a strong fight in air and also deliver blows to enemy on ground or in sea. Any future Iranian Moskit SuperSonic AShM should be launched from New Phantoms.  

~30 x F-14 AM with R-73, Fakour-90, New ECM.

20 x Mig-29 upgraded to SMT standard.

New purchases

Additional 2 squadrons of Mig-29M2/SMT Or Mig-35 need to be purchased. Not much of a new infrastructure will be required as IRIAF already has been operating this family for decades.

4 squadrons of MRCA Su-30SM. If Russia does not agree then 4 squadrons of J-10B. IRIAF badly needs 4+ a MRCA platform. People talk about 5th generation purchases that would not happen till 2025 ideally. These 4+ MRCA are required even if by some miracle IRIAF gets its hands on J-31.

4 x AEW with TOT.

All other crap like F-7N, Shahi legacy F-5E/F, Saeghe Abominations, Saddams gifted Mirage F1 EQ etc can be given to IRGC-AF if they want to enhance their fleet. Otherwise they are just fuel and maintenance burdens with no real combat value.

Domestic Blue angel F-18 and Qaher propaganda stunts need to stop. TOT from a reliable source is the only way.

IMHO Iran should completely retire all its tactical aircraft other than those than provide unique and powerful capabilities, like the F-14AM and Su-24. The 40 Tomcats upgraded to F-14AM standard would be an excellent interceptor platform, though the low sortie rates are a concern. The ~24 operational Su-24s, if upgraded to M2 standard, can be a potent strike platform. Keeping other types in service will only be a burden on maintenance time and resources. The F-4s, F-5s etc should all be retired completely. A large force of new, advanced aircraft should phase them out. Otherwise the IRIAF will still be stuck in the past, held back by its limited capabilities and the costs they demand.
نه شرقی، نه غربی، جمهوری اسلامی
#7
Emirzaad, good to see you back after a long time. Hope you are well.

Regarding this topic, I believe Putin won't even honor the UN sanctions anymore now that the US reneged on the nuke deal. And more than likely neither would China. Sooner or later Russia will transfer a large batch of the Su-30SM's. It's bound to happen. Iran is now indispensable for Russia, and its truly the one and only Russian ally in the greater ME.
#8
(08-02-2018, 01:45 PM)lulldapull Wrote: Emirzaad, good to see you back after a long time. Hope you are well.

Regarding this topic, I believe Putin won't even honor the UN sanctions anymore now that the US reneged on the nuke deal. And more than likely neither would China. Sooner or later Russia will transfer a large batch of the Su-30SM's. It's bound to happen. Iran is now indispensable for Russia, and its truly the one and only Russian ally in the greater ME.

Seeing how the negotiations stalled and no news has come, I think we still have to wait for UN Sanctions to end in October 2020.
نه شرقی، نه غربی، جمهوری اسلامی
#9
(08-01-2018, 08:16 PM)AmirPatriot Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 10:38 PM)Emirzaad Wrote: Realistic option for IRIAF would be to first improve and sustain what it has with upgradations and some moderate level purchases.

44-48 X F-4

F-4 fleet is diverse in sense that this fighter along with F-14AM can deliver the A2A role while it can also carryout naval or A2G strikes. I think Doran up-gradation of the fleet with JL-10A pulse doppler or KLJ-7 radars, armed with Pl-12, SD-10, Fakour-90, Ghader/C802-803 ...  New EO/IR, Jamming pods etc. May be HMS with high OBS WVR attack. This up-gradation will bring Phantom fleet to 4.0 generation at least in terms of combat suite. Suddenly you have 4 fully functional multirole squadrons who can put up a strong fight in air and also deliver blows to enemy on ground or in sea. Any future Iranian Moskit SuperSonic AShM should be launched from New Phantoms.  

~30 x F-14 AM with R-73, Fakour-90, New ECM.

20 x Mig-29 upgraded to SMT standard.

New purchases

Additional 2 squadrons of Mig-29M2/SMT Or Mig-35 need to be purchased. Not much of a new infrastructure will be required as IRIAF already has been operating this family for decades.

4 squadrons of MRCA Su-30SM. If Russia does not agree then 4 squadrons of J-10B. IRIAF badly needs 4+ a MRCA platform. People talk about 5th generation purchases that would not happen till 2025 ideally. These 4+ MRCA are required even if by some miracle IRIAF gets its hands on J-31.

4 x AEW with TOT.

All other crap like F-7N, Shahi legacy F-5E/F, Saeghe Abominations, Saddams gifted Mirage F1 EQ etc can be given to IRGC-AF if they want to enhance their fleet. Otherwise they are just fuel and maintenance burdens with no real combat value.

Domestic Blue angel F-18 and Qaher propaganda stunts need to stop. TOT from a reliable source is the only way.

IMHO Iran should completely retire all its tactical aircraft other than those than provide unique and powerful capabilities, like the F-14AM and Su-24. The 40 Tomcats upgraded to F-14AM standard would be an excellent interceptor platform, though the low sortie rates are a concern. The ~24 operational Su-24s, if upgraded to M2 standard, can be a potent strike platform. Keeping other types in service will only be a burden on maintenance time and resources. The F-4s, F-5s etc should all be retired completely. A large force of new, advanced aircraft should phase them out. Otherwise the IRIAF will still be stuck in the past, held back by its limited capabilities and the costs they demand.

Do Tomcats really number upto 40 ? I believe they are around like ~30-34 out which 10-12 are F-14AM.

IMO Doran upgraded F-4E/D fleet if it really is what we hope it would be (chinese PD radar, BVR, high OBS WVR, ECM etc) then sustaining four squadrons of them will bring no harm. Same goes for Su-24 like you said if upgraded to M2 standard.

Mig-29 provides IRIAF with an opportunity, there are around 20 operational. They can get them upgraded to SMT standard (may be a more customized version) and purchase additional 2 squadrons of M2 or SMT or even Mig-35. 

The new IRIAF should look like this...

30-36 x F-14 AM
44-48 Doran F-4E/D
44 x Mig-29M2/SMT/Fulcurum-F (half of the fleet will be newly purchased, current 20 will be upgraded)
48-56 x Su-30 SM / Su-35 / J-10B (moderate level MRCA TOT is a must)
23 x Su-24 M2
5 x AEW (TOT)
50-60 X Shahed-129 + Local RQ-170 

The above is a potent Air arm which can at least take on gulf arab AF or even Turkish air force. 

Rest of the Shahi + Saddam relics can be transferred to IRGC so that they can use them in Syria, iraq or future afghanistan conflict to bomb hostile militias.  With time older platforms will retire replaced  by 4++ TOT local manufactured variants.



The above AF

(08-02-2018, 01:45 PM)lulldapull Wrote: Emirzaad, good to see you back after a long time. Hope you are well.

Regarding this topic, I believe Putin won't even honor the UN sanctions anymore now that the US reneged on the nuke deal. And more than likely neither would China. Sooner or later Russia will transfer a large batch of the Su-30SM's. It's bound to happen. Iran is now indispensable for Russia, and its truly the one and only Russian ally in the greater ME.

Hi Lulldapull, I am well, how have you been ?

Kremlin will bargain Syria and Iranian presence in Syria for Ukraine with US and allied EU. Kremlin created this bargaining chip of Syria+Iran in syria for Ukraine and they are going to use it in near future. Why do you think Putins fighter jets are providing no air cover  to their allied IRGC bases in Syria when Israeli jets bomb IRGC bases ? they are willing to let Iran be beaten out of Syria if it gives them some good leverage in dealing with west for Ukraine. Assad is their ally and he is ging no where so how much important Iran is to them ? Do not forget that histories do not change easily, Iran and Russia have always been rivals even bigger rivals than turkey and Iran.

Even if Russia agrees to provide IRIAF with Su-30SM. I highly doubt it will be in bigger numbers. They would merely supply some 48 fighter jets with few trainers. Mullahs themselves do not want to spend much on IRIAF. Another Nojeh coup scares them more then Isreali strikes on IRGC bases in Syria. 

TOT is a must for Iran so it is upto the mullahs and their diplomats to somehow convince Russia of providing TOT through manufacturing plants settled inside Iran.
#10
(08-04-2018, 09:07 AM)Emirzaad Wrote: The above is a potent Air arm which can at least take on gulf arab AF

A hodge podge of a total about 130 upgraded F-14A, F-4D/E, MiG-29A/SMT + 48 Su-30SM, take on the RSAF? I should remind you that once all their orders are fulfilled, they will have 152 F-15SA, 70 F-15C/D and 96 EF Typhoons. That's over 300 4.5th gen fighters, with AESA radars and advanced air to air missiles. Not to mention the 80 Tornado attack aircraft. Even worse, these are all clearly superior to any aircraft you outlined apart from the Su-30SM. The enemy would have both a qualitative and quantitative advantage.

Ditch the F-4s, forget the MiG-29s or at most just upgrade what we have to SMT and don't bother buying any more. F-14AMs  can be kept as interceptors. Then use the money that you didn't waste on keeping F-4s and MiGs in the air, as well as everything you propose to flog to the IRGC (it's still a waste of government funds to keep them in the air. The IRGC doesn't need fast jets anyway. Drones and helicopters are enough) to build a large, modern air force with a large number of new built 4.5 gen jets. Likely these would have to be Su-30SMs. 150-200 of these aircraft can give Iran a fighting chance of defending against attack by an unpredictable, unstable and aggressive Saudi Arabia, if aircraft are fully integrated into the IADS.

I am not dreaming. This is not wishful thinking. Iran's current air force is totally obsolete and most of those aircraft will be useless whatever you do with them. Iran must face the reality of the situation and address it as a high priority, with appropriate dedicated funds and effort. There is no other way.
نه شرقی، نه غربی، جمهوری اسلامی
  


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