Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Rebuild the IRIAF
#11
(08-04-2018, 11:22 PM)AmirPatriot Wrote:
(08-04-2018, 09:07 AM)Emirzaad Wrote: The above is a potent Air arm which can at least take on gulf arab AF

A hodge podge of a total about 130 upgraded F-14A, F-4D/E, MiG-29A/SMT + 48 Su-30SM, take on the RSAF? I should remind you that once all their orders are fulfilled, they will have 152 F-15SA, 70 F-15C/D and 96 EF Typhoons. That's over 300 4.5th gen fighters, with AESA radars and advanced air to air missiles. Not to mention the 80 Tornado attack aircraft. Even worse, these are all clearly superior to any aircraft you outlined apart from the Su-30SM. The enemy would have both a qualitative and quantitative advantage.

Ditch the F-4s, forget the MiG-29s or at most just upgrade what we have to SMT and don't bother buying any more. F-14AMs  can be kept as interceptors. Then use the money that you didn't waste on keeping F-4s and MiGs in the air, as well as everything you propose to flog to the IRGC (it's still a waste of government funds to keep them in the air. The IRGC doesn't need fast jets anyway. Drones and helicopters are enough) to build a large, modern air force with a large number of new built 4.5 gen jets. Likely these would have to be Su-30SMs. 150-200 of these aircraft can give Iran a fighting chance of defending against attack by an unpredictable, unstable and aggressive Saudi Arabia, if aircraft are fully integrated into the IADS.

I am not dreaming. This is not wishful thinking. Iran's current air force is totally obsolete and most of those aircraft will be useless whatever you do with them. Iran must face the reality of the situation and address it as a high priority, with appropriate dedicated funds and effort. There is no other way.

You did not consider following points :

1) This Mullah government of Iran is notoriously famous for not spending on traditional branches of Iran armed forces specifically IRIAF. Let alone 200 Su-30SM that you are mentioning, I would be surprised if they actually provide IRIAF with money to complete the current IRIAF fleet upgradations if Russia agrees to take Mig-29 and Su-24 upgradations to SMT and M2 standards respectively. Their intentions to rebuild IRIAF and foreign diplomacy are both highly doubtful and incompetent so far. They let our boys be burnt in syria by jew bombs from skies and they still are not focusing on IRIAF. 

2) I think Russia will not agree to provide Iran with 200 x 4.5 generation MRCA's and destroy its relations with Israel, Persian Gulf sheikhdoms, Turkey etc. Russian air arm refused to provide any air cover to Iranian assets in Syria when jew jets were bombing them. Kremlin has repeatedly shown that it would not favor Iran over its relations with other regional countries which happen to be Iranian foes. Putin is in Syria because it suits Russian interests not Iranian ones. Remember how many years Russia took to provide Iran with a defensive weapon for which Iran paid years back ?  

3) You are neglecting the idea of Iranian defence doctrine. IRIAF is not IIAF with offensive mindset. IRIAF is a defensive force now (weak one) even if you add in some new 70-80 new 4+ fighters. Iran is a large country with enemies on almost all sides. To rely upon IRAF to gaurd the Iranian skies while providing air cover to surface fleet in PG and also launch strikes on enemy lands, IRIAF will need some 250-300 MRCA 4.5 generation fighters with excellent supply of spare parts and weaponry, training etc along with multiple AEW. Even if Mullahs are gone tomorrow and Iran gets a moderate western favored government such powerful air arm will not be built before 7-8 years in future. What do we do in the mean time ?

Going by what I proposed, Iran can launch strikes on enemy lands and assets by its missiles i.e. separating warheads MaRV on SR/MR/IR-BM(I believe Khorramshahr is IRBM), LACMs. In case of conflict Iran can target Saudi forward bases (2 in total) with salvos of 50-60 MaRV's and LACMs on major AD sites and air bases. They can do that because Saudi ABM shield has not for once targeted separating warheads of yemeni modified Scud-C's ... in return RSAF will try to strike Iranian assets in PG and beyond and they will be met by well integrated AD comprising of S-300PMU2, Bavar-373, Raad, Sayad 2/3, Pantsir M1 + some 12-14 sqaudrons of F-14AM (3-4), Mig-29 SMT/M2/Mig-35 (4), Su-30 SM/27MK3/J-10S (5) .... if supported by proper AD and AEW this is a potent air arm and realistic one that will bring down some of the attack aircraft for sure. What do you think these privileged Bedouin leaders will do once BM's will start hitting on their bases and some of their aggressor aircrafts will be lost over Iran ? RSAF was more than equipped to carry out air strikes on Iraq or at-least on Iraqi forces in Kuwait in persian gulf war 1 but they did nothing except running to USA. Will dozen country alliance gather up now?

Yes once can think of complete overhaul of IRIAF with 24 squadrons of 4++ MRCA's from Russia or China with TOT but 1) it is very difficult, politically 2) Lack of Iranian will + finances.
#12
(08-05-2018, 02:27 AM)Emirzaad Wrote: You did not consider following points :

1) This Mullah government of Iran is notoriously famous for not spending on traditional branches of Iran armed forces specifically IRIAF. Let alone 200 Su-30SM that you are mentioning, I would be surprised if they actually provide IRIAF with money to complete the current IRIAF fleet upgradations if Russia agrees to take Mig-29 and Su-24 upgradations to SMT and M2 standards respectively. Their intentions to rebuild IRIAF and foreign diplomacy are both highly doubtful and incompetent so far. They let our boys be burnt in syria by jew bombs from skies and they still are not focusing on IRIAF. 

2) I think Russia will not agree to provide Iran with 200 x 4.5 generation MRCA's and destroy its relations with Israel, Persian Gulf sheikhdoms, Turkey etc. Russian air arm refused to provide any air cover to Iranian assets in Syria when jew jets were bombing them. Kremlin has repeatedly shown that it would not favor Iran over its relations with other regional countries which happen to be Iranian foes. Putin is in Syria because it suits Russian interests not Iranian ones. Remember how many years Russia took to provide Iran with a defensive weapon for which Iran paid years back ?  

3) You are neglecting the idea of Iranian defence doctrine. IRIAF is not IIAF with offensive mindset. IRIAF is a defensive force now (weak one) even if you add in some new 70-80 new 4+ fighters. Iran is a large country with enemies on almost all sides. To rely upon IRAF to gaurd the Iranian skies while providing air cover to surface fleet in PG and also launch strikes on enemy lands, IRIAF will need some 250-300 MRCA 4.5 generation fighters with excellent supply of spare parts and weaponry, training etc along with multiple AEW. Even if Mullahs are gone tomorrow and Iran gets a moderate western favored government such powerful air arm will not be built before 7-8 years in future. What do we do in the mean time ?

Going by what I proposed, Iran can launch strikes on enemy lands and assets by its missiles i.e. separating warheads MaRV on SR/MR/IR-BM(I believe Khorramshahr is IRBM), LACMs. In case of conflict Iran can target Saudi forward bases (2 in total) with salvos of 50-60 MaRV's and LACMs on major AD sites and air bases. They can do that because Saudi ABM shield has not for once targeted separating warheads of yemeni modified Scud-C's ... in return RSAF will try to strike Iranian assets in PG and beyond and they will be met by well integrated AD comprising of S-300PMU2, Bavar-373, Raad, Sayad 2/3, Pantsir M1 + some 12-14 sqaudrons of F-14AM (3-4), Mig-29 SMT/M2/Mig-35 (4), Su-30 SM/27MK3/J-10S (5) .... if supported by proper AD and AEW this is a potent air arm and realistic one that will bring down some of the attack aircraft for sure. What do you think these privileged Bedouin leaders will do once BM's will start hitting on their bases and some of their aggressor aircrafts will be lost over Iran ? RSAF was more than equipped to carry out air strikes on Iraq or at-least on Iraqi forces in Kuwait in persian gulf war 1 but they did nothing except running to USA. Will dozen country alliance gather up now?

Yes once can think of complete overhaul of IRIAF with 24 squadrons of 4++ MRCA's from Russia or China with TOT but 1) it is very difficult, politically 2) Lack of Iranian will + finances.

1. I think Dehqan's talks with Russia regarding the Su-30 proved that Iran is prepared to spend significant money on the air force. 

2. I wouldn't use Syria as an example for arms deal politics. In Syria the Russians have their own interests and don't want ot get involved in the Iran-Israel proxy war. In the arms deal, Turkey wouldn't care. Israel by itself can't do anything. Neither can the Arabs. They would channel all their efforts through the US. And since the Russians can make several billion off such a sale, it's in their interest to sell. Their relations with the west aren't exactly great right now either.

3. I'm not saying Iran should just rely on the IRIAF, not when there are very powerful air forces in the region. The IRIAF can supplement both the IRIADF and the IRGC's ballistic missile force. Defensively, they can provide cover for the IRIADF against standoff munitions. 

Offensively, the IRGC-ASF's ballistic missiles can paralyse the enemy air force and air defences (by disabling runways and enemy air defence radars/command posts), allowing the IRIAF to destroy the adversary air force on the ground. The offensive use is very important since the cost and relative imprecision of ballistic missiles doesn't allow them to be used in large numbers in a sustained way. They can't reliably hit individual aircraft bunkers without a very large number of missiles being expended. And while they can hit runways reliably, they cannot keep a runway inactive indefinitely. Runways can be repaired quite quickly and trying to keep it in a constant state of repair will be difficult since it is likely that massed attacks will be needed to overcome missile defences. But if the IRIAF is capable enough, all the ballistic missiles need to do is one big alpha strike on runways, radars and command posts, allowing the IRIAF to use the window to fly in and destroy aircraft bunkers and remaining targets, effectively wiping out the enemy offensive/defensive ability. Think 1967 Operation Focus.
نه شرقی، نه غربی، جمهوری اسلامی
#13
Two interesting articles discussing the subject at the hand.
http://jangaavaran.ir/%D8%A8%D9%88%D8%AF...%87%D8%A7/
http://jangaavaran.ir/%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF...%86%DB%8C/
What do you guys think about these articles?
#14
Emirzaad, I'm well, been a long time bro from the IMF days. Good to see you here, and hopefully other old IMF members soon join up here. 

As far as this Russia/ Iran thing, I agree, there are some strange things going on like the IDF attacks on the IRGC bases, but they haven't caused much damage or casualties. Most were rendered ineffective by the Pantsir's and the BukM2's. True that Russia doesn't use its S-300's or S-400's on IDF aircraft over Lebanon, but the SYAA defenses do manage to shoot down a sizable number of incoming IDF missiles launched over the Mediterranean or Lebanese airspace. 

To me now after Putin told Khamenei explicitly that he won't abandon Iran, I believe him. If Iran leaves Russia, Mr Putin will have nobody really in the ME. Assad is so weak without Iranian help and support. Whatever he has left militarily is largely serviced by Iranian specialists. Not to mention probably financed by Iran too. He has no money whatsoever. So IMO, Iran is truly indispensable to Russia right now. So come 2020 oct, my hunch is Putin will allow a TOT of the Su-30SM. That in itself will correct all the wrongs in the IRIAF.   

(08-04-2018, 09:07 AM)Emirzaad Wrote:
(08-01-2018, 08:16 PM)AmirPatriot Wrote:
(07-31-2018, 10:38 PM)Emirzaad Wrote: Realistic option for IRIAF would be to first improve and sustain what it has with upgradations and some moderate level purchases.

44-48 X F-4

F-4 fleet is diverse in sense that this fighter along with F-14AM can deliver the A2A role while it can also carryout naval or A2G strikes. I think Doran up-gradation of the fleet with JL-10A pulse doppler or KLJ-7 radars, armed with Pl-12, SD-10, Fakour-90, Ghader/C802-803 ...  New EO/IR, Jamming pods etc. May be HMS with high OBS WVR attack. This up-gradation will bring Phantom fleet to 4.0 generation at least in terms of combat suite. Suddenly you have 4 fully functional multirole squadrons who can put up a strong fight in air and also deliver blows to enemy on ground or in sea. Any future Iranian Moskit SuperSonic AShM should be launched from New Phantoms.  

~30 x F-14 AM with R-73, Fakour-90, New ECM.

20 x Mig-29 upgraded to SMT standard.

New purchases

Additional 2 squadrons of Mig-29M2/SMT Or Mig-35 need to be purchased. Not much of a new infrastructure will be required as IRIAF already has been operating this family for decades.

4 squadrons of MRCA Su-30SM. If Russia does not agree then 4 squadrons of J-10B. IRIAF badly needs 4+ a MRCA platform. People talk about 5th generation purchases that would not happen till 2025 ideally. These 4+ MRCA are required even if by some miracle IRIAF gets its hands on J-31.

4 x AEW with TOT.

All other crap like F-7N, Shahi legacy F-5E/F, Saeghe Abominations, Saddams gifted Mirage F1 EQ etc can be given to IRGC-AF if they want to enhance their fleet. Otherwise they are just fuel and maintenance burdens with no real combat value.

Domestic Blue angel F-18 and Qaher propaganda stunts need to stop. TOT from a reliable source is the only way.

IMHO Iran should completely retire all its tactical aircraft other than those than provide unique and powerful capabilities, like the F-14AM and Su-24. The 40 Tomcats upgraded to F-14AM standard would be an excellent interceptor platform, though the low sortie rates are a concern. The ~24 operational Su-24s, if upgraded to M2 standard, can be a potent strike platform. Keeping other types in service will only be a burden on maintenance time and resources. The F-4s, F-5s etc should all be retired completely. A large force of new, advanced aircraft should phase them out. Otherwise the IRIAF will still be stuck in the past, held back by its limited capabilities and the costs they demand.

Do Tomcats really number upto 40 ? I believe they are around like ~30-34 out which 10-12 are F-14AM.

IMO Doran upgraded F-4E/D fleet if it really is what we hope it would be (chinese PD radar, BVR, high OBS WVR, ECM etc) then sustaining four squadrons of them will bring no harm. Same goes for Su-24 like you said if upgraded to M2 standard.

Mig-29 provides IRIAF with an opportunity, there are around 20 operational. They can get them upgraded to SMT standard (may be a more customized version) and purchase additional 2 squadrons of M2 or SMT or even Mig-35. 

The new IRIAF should look like this...

30-36 x F-14 AM
44-48 Doran F-4E/D
44 x Mig-29M2/SMT/Fulcurum-F (half of the fleet will be newly purchased, current 20 will be upgraded)
48-56 x Su-30 SM / Su-35 / J-10B (moderate level MRCA TOT is a must)
23 x Su-24 M2
5 x AEW (TOT)
50-60 X Shahed-129 + Local RQ-170 

The above is a potent Air arm which can at least take on gulf arab AF or even Turkish air force. 

Rest of the Shahi + Saddam relics can be transferred to IRGC so that they can use them in Syria, iraq or future afghanistan conflict to bomb hostile militias.  With time older platforms will retire replaced  by 4++ TOT local manufactured variants.



The above AF

(08-02-2018, 01:45 PM)lulldapull Wrote: Emirzaad, good to see you back after a long time. Hope you are well.

Regarding this topic, I believe Putin won't even honor the UN sanctions anymore now that the US reneged on the nuke deal. And more than likely neither would China. Sooner or later Russia will transfer a large batch of the Su-30SM's. It's bound to happen. Iran is now indispensable for Russia, and its truly the one and only Russian ally in the greater ME.

Hi Lulldapull, I am well, how have you been ?

Kremlin will bargain Syria and Iranian presence in Syria for Ukraine with US and allied EU. Kremlin created this bargaining chip of Syria+Iran in syria for Ukraine and they are going to use it in near future. Why do you think Putins fighter jets are providing no air cover  to their allied IRGC bases in Syria when Israeli jets bomb IRGC bases ? they are willing to let Iran be beaten out of Syria if it gives them some good leverage in dealing with west for Ukraine. Assad is their ally and he is ging no where so how much important Iran is to them ? Do not forget that histories do not change easily, Iran and Russia have always been rivals even bigger rivals than turkey and Iran.

Even if Russia agrees to provide IRIAF with Su-30SM. I highly doubt it will be in bigger numbers. They would merely supply some 48 fighter jets with few trainers. Mullahs themselves do not want to spend much on IRIAF. Another Nojeh coup scares them more then Isreali strikes on IRGC bases in Syria. 

TOT is a must for Iran so it is upto the mullahs and their diplomats to somehow convince Russia of providing TOT through manufacturing plants settled inside Iran.
#15
(08-08-2018, 02:31 PM)Cthulhu Wrote: Two interesting articles discussing the subject at the hand.
http://jangaavaran.ir/%D8%A8%D9%88%D8%AF...%87%D8%A7/
http://jangaavaran.ir/%D8%AC%D9%86%DA%AF...%86%DB%8C/
What do you guys think about these articles?

Seems like just a wishlist... For example, it has the An-140 in there, which Iran doesn't have a great history with.
نه شرقی، نه غربی، جمهوری اسلامی
#16
I am not sure if something was signed or a simple understanding was reached during Dehghan's visit to Moscow years back for delivery of Su-30SM/SME or Su-27MK3.

How much will the TOT cost even if kits for 48 jets come from Sukhoi ? is that even economical feasiblefor Mullahs anymore ?
#17
[Image: IMG_1865.jpg]
Guys this is my alternate timeline of IRIAF where Russia consider Iran as it's powerfull Ally what would you think?

Note: At Mirage and Su-22 + marks were upgrades,for Mirage,it has capability to use AiM-54 and R-77 and Su-22 is that 10 upgraded Su-22 by IRGC
#18
^

Su-22 are operated by IRGC and upgrading/maintaining merely two squadrons of those 3rd generation MF-1 will be a financial burden in my opinion. They too can be transferred to IRGC for using in strike role.

Is there any true hint or report of Su-35S being pursued by IRIAF, I only have seen Su-30SM/SME being mentioned along with Su-27MK3.

F-14AM and F-4 E/D Dowran up-gradations are real but what is the extent of these upgradations. Mig-29 fleet will be locally upgraded inside Iran to SMT along with fencers will go to MK2. Mig-29 fleet numbers will increase as well.

IRIAF can resurrect with proper upgradations of and TOT purchases. 3rd generation fleet needs to be gone (except F-4E/D).
#19
(08-16-2018, 06:34 AM)Emirzaad Wrote: ^

Su-22 are operated by IRGC and upgrading/maintaining merely two squadrons of those 3rd generation MF-1 will be a financial burden in my opinion. They too can be transferred to IRGC for using in strike role.

Is there any true hint or report of Su-35S being pursued by IRIAF, I only have seen Su-30SM/SME being mentioned along with Su-27MK3.

F-14AM and F-4 E/D Dowran up-gradations are real but what is the extent of these upgradations. Mig-29 fleet will be locally upgraded inside Iran to SMT along with fencers will go to MK2. Mig-29 fleet numbers will increase as well.

IRIAF can resurrect with proper upgradations of and TOT purchases. 3rd generation fleet needs to be gone (except F-4E/D).

Hey mate it is "alternate timeline"
And also about Su-35 i read southfront that said that Def minister Dehgan said he wants 18 Su-30 and 8 Su-35 from Russia but Russia insist to buy Su-27MS3
#20
(08-16-2018, 05:48 AM)07_SeppDietrich Wrote: [Image: IMG_1865.jpg]
Guys this is my alternate timeline of IRIAF where Russia consider Iran as it's powerfull Ally what would you think?

Note: At Mirage and Su-22 + marks were upgrades,for Mirage,it has capability to use AiM-54 and R-77 and Su-22 is that 10 upgraded Su-22 by IRGC

Put the F-4, Mirage, Su-22 into storage. Replace all with Su-30SME and 1 more squadron of Su-35.
نه شرقی، نه غربی، جمهوری اسلامی
  


Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  IRIAF F-4 AmirPatriot 11 8,890 03-26-2019, 02:36 PM
Last Post: admin
  IRIAF F-14 AmirPatriot 27 14,386 03-24-2019, 01:30 AM
Last Post: admin
  IRIAF Mirage F-1 admin 3 2,796 03-23-2019, 11:33 PM
Last Post: admin
Photo IRIAF - Iran Air Force gallery administrator 15 9,637 03-01-2019, 05:19 PM
Last Post: enko pasar
  IRIAF C-130 AmirPatriot 8 5,503 10-09-2018, 02:21 AM
Last Post: pin gu

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)